Hi Andrew. I’ve read your book, and one of the concepts that really called out to me was the concept of the mature masculine and the mature feminine. You also have the immature feminine and the immature masculine. Are we always going to be sitting in one of these boxes? Could you describe how that concept came about and what it means?

One of the reasons why I developed the concept is because what I realized happens around the world is there is quite a lot of confusion around what it is to be a male and a female (as in, born with a male body or a female body) and around the gender roles that our societies has created for us (it starts with things like “boys are supposed to wear blue, girls are supposed to wear pink”, etc)., What I find is a lot people are confusing all these polarities, these characteristics, these energies that are in all of us. So, the book Relationship Tantra and the online courses that I have really help people to have clarity about these issues, they help with the understanding of the male and female energies and the characteristics and behaviors of those polarities within us.

Once we get a clear distinction between all of those characteristics of gender roles and our sexes, then we really start to have more choice and freedom in our lives and also in our relationships. What I find for a lot of people is that they end up getting stuck in really old, boring patterns of behavior in their relationships that are cross combinations of gender roles and polarities of male and female. They say they are very unhappy in their relationships, they want something deeper, richer, more expansive, freeing and liberating for themselves and for their partners. Our parents, generations and generations before that, were happy just being in a marriage, having children, being in a job and raising families. This generation and generations to follow are wanting more from their experiences rather than just that, and I believe the book Relationship Tantra, along with creating new concepts around the masculine and feminine, is going to give people the opportunity to have these expansive, deeper, richer types of relationships – not only with other people but with themselves.

From what I understand when reading the book, the idea is to recognize and understand when you are in the immature masculine/feminine and stepping into the mature aspects of both.

What I find is that a lot of people, a lot of the time, are experiencing their lives from the immature masculine and feminine polarities. Now, there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, however it’s not giving people the life experience that they want to have. To make clear how I describe the immature masculine characteristics, they are things such as:

–       Being controlling

–       Being regulating

–       Creating rules

–       Being dominating

–       Jealousy

Capitalism is a great example of the immature masculine, sports are a great example. There are some positive aspects, things like camaraderie, but it’s still creating competition against another individual or team, and that’s the immature masculine. Aggressions of the immature masculine are things like:

–       Physically hurting someone

–       Breaking something

–       Threatening someone

Now, the interesting thing is when I talk to people around the world (males and females), everybody can relate to being controlling or dominating or jealous or being aggressive – everyone relates to that, even females. What I find a lot of the time in our society is that we keep on confusing masculine with male and feminine with female. It’s creating a lot of problems in our relationships. Because what I find is that men are constantly trying to build their masculine and women are trying to develop their feminine, but it creates a separation within self. So, if women can identify with the immature masculine it’s because they have that polarity, that characteristic within them, as well as men.

Now, the immature feminine consists of characteristics like:

–       Needing external validation to feel love, to feel safe and secure

–       Not really knowing what they want, and even if they did, they could not ask for it because they are afraid of not being loved  as they don’t love themselves enough

The aggressive immature feminine consists of characteristics like:

–       Takings someone’s money or reputation from them. It’s more covert, more manipulative compared to the immature masculine which is more controlling and dominating.

Once again, everyone identifies with this, even men. So this is why I believe it’s imperative that all men and women start to realize the importance of understanding that these polarities (masculine and feminine) are in all of us regardless if we are in a male or female body. We’ve created this issue where (as I mentioned earlier) men are cultivating their masculine and women are cultivating their feminine, and we are separating from ourselves. There is a spiritual teacher from India, named Osho, he has a famous saying which is words to the effect of “When the masculine and feminine unite as one, Buddha can be born.” But if we are constantly polarizing ourselves there is never going to be an integration of the masculine and feminine in ourselves, therefore there can never be an awakened experience for us. So one of the things that I really like to support people to do is to let go of this concept of “Men: Masculine, Women: Feminine”.

Mmm, I agree. Part of the problem with this concept is that it associates attraction with this polarity: A man being very, very masculine, being dominant, and then the women being submissive and being in awe of that masculine power. We create this paradigm where we think that’s what attraction is. But you don’t think that’s actually what attraction is, correct?

You’re right; this is generally considered what attraction is. Mainstream society has this concept, and then when people come into tantra (looking for something new), they are confronted with the same thing, but it’s dressed up in a different way. This is why I’ve developed a course called ‘Beyond Tantra’, which helps people to move away from the tantric concept of separation and into a more integrated concept where we start to understand and cultivate the mature masculine and feminine aspects within ourselves. I just want to explain some of the aspects of the mature masculine and the mature feminine.

Very simply, the mature masculine consists of characteristics like:

– Being present

– Being aware

– Having clarity

– Being available for showing feelings and holding space for feelings.

I like to visualize in a meditation one of those huge redwood trees in America. They are deeply rooted in the earth, yet they are still flexible enough to move with the wind, and that for me is a beautiful concept of the mature masculine.

The mature feminine (very simply) consists of things like:

– Being loved and being loving

– Being intuitive

– Being instinctive.

In that meditation, I’ll visualize the wind being the mature feminine which is brushing against the leaves of the tree; massaging it with love.

When I talk to men and women about these two polarities, both of them can still identify with these characteristics and everyone that I ask also agrees that’s important for everybody to develop them, these are all essential characteristics for all of us, men and women, to cultivate.

Mainstream society and classical tantra use the concept of men being masculine and women being feminine to create a polarity or a spark of attraction. This works and it can work exceptionally well, but over time that spark starts to dwindle. It’s not realistic or practical. Because if a man has to cultivate his mature masculine all of the time, then he’s harming himself in a way, because he’s not nurturing that loving part of himself – he’s disconnecting from a natural and organic part of himself. It’s the same for a woman, if she’s always having to cultivate her mature feminine to be in attraction with a man, she’s also harming herself, because she’s missing out on the beauty, confidence and the strength of having presence, clarity, being available etc.

And when you cultivate it from yourself, you don’t actually need it from another. As I talk about in the book, what happens for a lot of guys is that if you’ve cultivated your mature masculine and not your mature feminine, then you’re going to look for a woman who’s cultivated her feminine as a way to counter balance. And women have been doing the same. But what happens is that when you meet that woman, you have to anchor into her to draw her mature feminine into you, which creates a dependency on her. She needs to behave in a certain way so you feel a certain way. While you’re anchoring into her, she’s also anchoring into you to draw your mature masculine energy. Therefore, she needs you to be a certain way so that she feels a certain way.

I’m sure everyone can relate to what you’re saying.

Absolutely, this starts the basis of what I call ‘power over’ dynamic in relationship. In the book, I talk about it being the second stage of relationship. We have the honeymoon stage, where the other person can do no wrong. It’s cute that they leave the toilet seat up, it’s quirky that they leave their clothes all over the place.

You usually have great sex in the honeymoon period and of course after several months, or a year or so, the chemicals start to wear off and then we start to come into the second stage of relationship (the power over dynamic) where we are creating dependencies etc – because we feel as if we are missing something within ourselves. A lot of people end up getting stuck in the second stage of relationship without even realizing it, and even if they do realize it, they don’t know how to get to the third phase of relationship, which is what I call the ‘power with’ dynamic.

This isn’t about anchoring into each other; it’s about removing the anchors and cultivating the mature masculine and feminine within ourselves and supporting the other person to do the same. So that, instead of having dependency, we have support, love and respect for each other. This is what I consider to be new paradigm of attraction between men and women.

The thing that I love about this, if both people in a relationship are cultivating their masculine and feminine within self, there is a dance that can start to happen.

I like to see the masculine and feminine being like a spectrum rather than black and white. In any given moment, I can be anywhere on the spectrum (between masculine and feminine). I might be more masculine in one moment but I’m still connected to the feminine. It becomes a dance. For example, if we were in a relationship I may be masculine in one moment and you might be more feminine, therefore my masculine would be attracted to your feminine and your feminine would be attracted to my masculine. Then, the next day you might be in your masculine more and I might be in my feminine more, but the attraction can still be there.

It doesn’t matter if you are male and male, female and female or male and female, when you are consciously cultivating your mature masculine and feminine within yourself, this forms the basis of your attraction. So, my masculine can be attracted to a woman’s feminine, but also my feminine could be attracted to a woman’s feminine and vice versa.

Do you see how this new concept starts to emerge? We still have the polarity for the attraction spark, but it’s more organic, it’s more realistic, because we are taking into consideration that everybody has masculine and feminine within themselves. It’s a beautiful thing to see a woman in her masculine being attracted to a man in his feminine, but then that can flip: the opposite is equally as beautiful, this is the dance.

How may this play out in a relationship? Is it about recognizing it and audibly voicing it and saying, ‘oh, I’m feeling in my feminine right now and I’m feeling these kinds of energies’ or you may reflect on it the day after something happened –  ‘ah, my immature/mature masculine came out there’…

That’s a great question. So, initially – absolutely, it’s about conscious awareness, conscious communication between both people, because we’ve all been conditioned about the roles of men and women in mainstream culture and also in tantra, we’ve been conditioned that we have to be a certain way. So, there’s a transition period in our relationships and also within ourselves, where we need to spend time being very conscious about our behavior, being aware of the polarities, because it’s so easy to go back into our old patterns of behavior and forget this, and then we create dependencies on each other again. So for a period of time, it’s really essential to continue communicating with each other of where you are at right now. For example, “I’m in my masculine, I’m in my feminine.” Etc. etc.  But over a period of time, a new dance starts to emerge. You know, you’re an amazing salsa dancer, I’ve seen you dance, but I am sure when you first started dancing salsa you were a little bit clunky.

Yes, definitely. I was awful.

You had to really think about the steps you were doing but now, I’ve seen you dance; you are like the Buddha of salsa dancing.

Not quite, but thank you!

When I watched you dance, it was like you weren’t thinking about it. It was just a flow and a rhythm that emerged from your body wisdom. Am I right?

Yes.

It’s the same with this concept. We need to start off being very conscious as we move through a transitional period, but after a while the dance becomes very flowing and rhythmical within the relationship, it’s not stagnant anymore because a beautiful richness between two people can happen. It’s liberation, because we are cultivating both the mature masculine and the mature feminine within self. And as I said earlier, it’s only when the masculine and feminine are integrated that a Buddha can be born. Then an awakening can happen.

I feel this is of primary importance for human consciousness that we solve our relationships between men and women, and this is one way we can become more enlightened.  Do you agree?

Absolutely. Our relationships give us a real, powerful opportunity for spiritual growth. Love is designed to initially show us everything that is not love: our relationships will trigger all of our wounding from our past experiences from our family of origin. If we have the conscious awareness, then we can start to heal a lot of these wounds. We can start to change our behavior; we can develop new ways of relating to ourselves and other people that support our spiritual growth. Once we’ve moved through that level of awareness, then love can show us everything that is love. If we can understand that our relationships are designed to show us the reflection of everything that is still unresolved in us, then we have powerful opportunities to use them as a platform for spiritual growth.

There is a lot of power in this kind of connection.

Absolutely. And then also when we are cultivating and circulating the mature masculine and feminine within ourselves and our partner is doing the same, this also leads to the opportunity of expanding our sexual experiences. Because when a man is always in the masculine and she is always in the feminine, there becomes a very stagnant approach to making love. Scientific studies show that most women in long term relationships get very bored sexually, and in my studies about 80% of women feel obligated to have sex in their long term relationships. Most of them would just rather read a book or go for a walk, or something like that.

When we move into this new paradigm of the third phase of relationships, which is about support, love and respect, we are not dependent on other people, so our sexual experience opens up to a whole other level of potential, because during our love making we can be dancing between the polarities within ourselves and within our experience of the other person. It’s by this dance that we can learn how to cultivate and circulate our sexual energy. So, not only can we expand our experience of orgasm to multiple orgasms, to full body orgasm, but we can then also use our sexual energy as a spiritual platform to access higher levels of consciousness in the very way the tantra textbooks talk about.

Any average person can do what I’m talking about. It doesn’t matter if they have a 9-5 job, it doesn’t matter where in the world they live. They can start to use their sexual energy and the integration of the masculine of feminine and the energy that this produces as their fuel for living on a daily basis. It can become their motivation for getting out of bed. Most of people are using adrenaline and mental willpower to live, but imagine if you can harness your sexual energy and start to use that as your motivation for living. Your whole experience of life alters, you start to move into a place of manifestation, magnetism and creation rather than needing to force things or make things happen on a daily basis. This is very exhausting for most people.

Thank you for now Andrew, what an amazing interview. We’ll certainly be hearing more from you soon.

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